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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 21st September 2008 , 07:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TrevCircleStudios View Post
Hmm. It occurs to me that herein lies the problem with user reviews. Any rating a user gives without having heard the competition is necessarily a very subjective measure. If let's say I reviewed my Adam S3a's and gave them a 4 out of 5 then, logically, that would seem to suggest the Resolv's are a better deal. I guess the only way we could get around this was to have a massive DV Forum gear shootout. Hmm... food for thought methinks.
+1 Trev. If I'm in the market for any piece of gear, a subjective opinion may not be of much value to me unless I know that it is a comparison with other and similar products.

I say, go for the gear shootout. You're the fast draw around here!
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Old 21st September 2008 , 07:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TrevCircleStudios View Post
Hmm. It occurs to me that herein lies the problem with user reviews. Any rating a user gives without having heard the competition is necessarily a very subjective measure. If let's say I reviewed my Adam S3a's and gave them a 4 out of 5 then, logically, that would seem to suggest the Resolv's are a better deal. I guess the only way we could get around this was to have a massive DV Forum gear shootout. Hmm... food for thought methinks.
Trev i love you positivity but yes you do have a point. It's hard to compare with out a comparison
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Old 22nd September 2008 , 04:37 PM
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Originally Posted by e-vinyl View Post
1.Name of the product: MICROHD HD400 Hum Destroyer
Do you reckon this could work well in a guitar chain? I know it's originally designed for other tasks, but hisses and hums in the guitar line annoys me and the EHX Hum-Debugger is a bit too expensive.
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Old 22nd September 2008 , 05:04 PM
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Originally Posted by krykos View Post
Do you reckon this could work well in a guitar chain? I know it's originally designed for other tasks, but hisses and hums in the guitar line annoys me and the EHX Hum-Debugger is a bit too expensive.
I haven't tried it in a guitar chain, what i did try was DI'ing the guitar to a mixer then plugin the mixers out to the hum destroyer and the guitar hum was kept. I would sugest a gate perhaps?
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Old 22nd September 2008 , 05:15 PM
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Originally Posted by e-vinyl View Post
I haven't tried it in a guitar chain, what i did try was DI'ing the guitar to a mixer then plugin the mixers out to the hum destroyer and the guitar hum was kept. I would sugest a gate perhaps?
Any in mind? The most inexpensive gate pedal I know is the Boss NS2, which is 30 more. Not that much of I difference, I know, but my guitar's needing a fixing at the mo, which is probably gonna get rid of my immediate cash...
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Old 22nd September 2008 , 05:17 PM
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Originally Posted by krykos View Post
Any in mind? The most inexpensive gate pedal I know is the Boss NS2, which is 30 more...
My area isn't guitars so i can't help/point out products much sorry
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Old 22nd September 2008 , 06:07 PM
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Ok...grab a cuppa

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrevCircleStudios View Post
Hmm. It occurs to me that herein lies the problem with user reviews. Any rating a user gives without having heard the competition is necessarily a very subjective measure.
Hi Trev.

Interesting point but I think you are missing one of the key reasons behind the User reviews...

Cubase and Logic
Let me explain...you simply cannot escape a subjective opinion even if someone writing a review has used 20 products over 20 years and makes a comparison.

A logic user for 10 years and also a Cubase user for 10 users could easily write a User review of both and say "havng used both extensively I must Cubase is defintely better". Give Logic a 4 and Cubase a 5.

Now...does that mean I will automatically 100% agree with that and then immeadiatley close the door on gathering any further info on both products? Of course not. I will look to demo both products (on my system or in a shop), read magazine reviews for both products and also browse the user forums for each product which is probably the best way to really see what it is like to use a product.

So really Trev please do not take the rating numbers so seriously. Some of the reviews so far do not even have ratings. It's perfectly harmless really

Guidelines

The guidelines are there just to provide a quick and easy way for any forum member or guest to get "a good overall idea" of *one* user perspective on a product. Not...a blanket viewpoint that must be considered the final word. That is taking things far too seriously here. I think you really have the wrong idea about one of the key reasons behind the User reviews.


Quote:
If let's say I reviewed my Adam S3a's and gave them a 4 out of 5 then, logically, that would seem to suggest the Resolv's are a better deal. I guess the only way we could get around this was to have a massive DV Forum gear shootout. Hmm... food for thought methinks.
Yes correct Trev...but "that would seem to suggest the Resolv's are a better deal"...for that reviewer not everyone. Nothing wrong with that. Even with the biggest gear shoot out ever...it would at best provide another set of subjective views. You cannot escape this.

Magazine reviews...

There are so many magazine reviews with different scores, ratings, pros and cons for different products does that mean they should not review products? Surely not of course. You will always get different view points on different products even if a user has used both extensively for decades.

That does not meant he knows what is best for someone else.

More on reviews

What happens if someone else writes a LogicPro review that totally counters sureno's. Does that mean sureno is wrong? Or lets say the counter or negative review is from someone who is a very happy Cubase user for 10years and has used Logic for twice as long as Sureno...does that mean sureno is wrong to rate or compare Logic with other products he may have demoed or used in the past?

Does that mean sureno's input in that review does not matter? Of course not. It simply means if a negative or counter review is written then that is that persons experience. It's not wrong, right or a problem...just a very valid viewpoint which is one of the foundations of any forum, to support viewpoints and give them a stage to be heard even if they differ.

No review system is 100% accurate. None. No comparsion process has ever led the whole music community to hold their hands up and say "we all agree on this". It will *never* happen. If it did forums would close overnight as everyone would simply agree.

Futre Music Shootout
Is a shootout or comparison process useful? Of course yes. Future Music did one for a number of Monitors and Samson Rubicons came out on top. Does that mean the other superb range of speakers should be avoided?

Does that mean the other experts on that panel of judges who did not agree should not be taken seriously or should not have been added to the panel? There were many different views in that shootout by the way. We are simply all wired differently.

Please Trev don't take the ratings or comparsions so seriously. They are meant as a gentle and harmless guide for someone in the market for a new product. There is nothing stopping anyone from writing a different review for the same product. e-vinyl and sureno talked about a product that e-vinyl was going to review, but he agreed with surenos review, but there was nothing stopping him writing something different.

The reviews are just a short sharp way to get some info on any user perspective. I cannot imagine anyone would really go and buy a product based "soley" on short user reviews on this forum. I don't think even a reviewer would think that.

Just type in the name of the product you want in Google for a wealth of additional info.

Seriously Trev, shootouts are a great way to get an idea as to what is better than another product but there is no way it will be a definitive reference. Nothing can produce that. But I see no reason why User reviews cannot co - exist with on going product shoot outs on this forum if need be.

SOS secrets of the pros...
I remember reading through a list of top draw mastering engineers, producers e.t.c and even their own comments did not always line up with each other. Some preferred this way to mix others that way...my point is a shoot out is still subject to the subjective views of the person or people doing it.

There is no perfect way to compare products but I see no "problem" with the rating or comparison process used in the User reviews. If a user feels they cannot rate or compare..that is perfectly fine.

No need for granular detail here. I specifically wanted reviewers to feel relaxed and not feel they must have a comparable product first before reviewing..which would make no sense IMO.

There are product reviews all over the world for a variety of different things in a myriad of ways but one is not 100% required to own a comparable product or have done a detailed A/B in a controlled environement e.t.c. ...your missing the point here Trev really.

Simple, structured feedback on products based on a users perspective. Something you can write up in 5 minutes.The User reviews are meant to avoid granular analysis and complexity.

Shootout or more lengthy comaprisons?
But of course I see no reason why a shoot out or more detailed comparison would not help but it's not a case of either or, with User reviews or a "problem" with them.

A shootout provides more details but will still be subjective. Will take longer and I seriously doubt everyone on this forum would be able to perform a detailed shootout or granular A/B comparison of any two products. We would each have to own every DV product to do that.

Lets have shootouts, why not? But I don't see the correlation between a detailed shootout and simple User reviews that are meant as a quick way to get some feedback, they are not meant as a definitive rating or comparison system for *every buyer* it's harmless Trev.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old 22nd September 2008 , 07:21 PM
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A well written post Monarch to a valid point raised by Trev.

Myself, the Admin team and indeed the DV 'powers that be' have seen what's been happening here with the 'User Review' initiative and everyone's shall we say 'well pleased' I'll be instigating a new 'User Review' dedicated part of the Forum (probably tomorrow) to which these threads can be transferred - cheers to Trev for suggesting that..

And a BIG shout out to Monarch for lighting the blue touch paper on this vibe - and also, major props go out to all you guys who have/are wading in with some great reviews - Top notch work fellas!!
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Old 22nd September 2008 , 07:38 PM
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Originally Posted by modz1 View Post
A well written post Monarch to a valid point raised by Trev.

Myself, the Admin team and indeed the DV 'powers that be' have seen what's been happening here with the 'User Review' initiative and everyone's shall we say 'well pleased' I'll be instigating a new 'User Review' dedicated part of the Forum (probably tomorrow) to which these threads can be transferred - cheers to Trev for suggesting that..

And a BIG shout out to Monarch for lighting the blue touch paper on this vibe - and also, major props go out to all you guys who have/are wading in with some great reviews - Top notch work fellas!!
Thanks modz1 !!!
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old 22nd September 2008 , 08:14 PM
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Lets have shootouts, why not? But I don't see the correlation between a detailed shootout and simple User reviews that are meant as a quick way to get some feedback, they are not meant as a definitive rating or comparison system for *every buyer* it's harmless Trev.
I've only quoted this bit but what follows refers to all of your post. I'll ignore the condescending nature of some of the language. Perhaps if you'd asked me what I meant instead of ascribing your fears of what I might have meant it might have been a more positive experience for everyone.

First of all, you actually miss my point(s) not the other way around. While I will take user reviews with a pinch of salt if I read them at all that can not be said for everyone. Some people will absolutely base buying decisions on what is said here (because actualy they are in no position to try alternatives). This means that we should tread warily/work out how to get around that in order to minimise that risk. It would also mark this forum above, say, Harmony Central, who rely on often flawed reviews and would, thereby, very likely drive more traffic to us.

My thinking was that actually if this is instituted after careful thought it could be a useful resource and some of those problems could be minimised. I have two or three ideas as starters for ten:

1. If for example as part of the review people would identify what other gear of a similar type they have used regularly it would be clearer how much weight to put on their review and roughly where the piece of gear they are reviewing lies (in what is an admittedly subjective spectrum). Let me give you an example) if for example the reviewer is reviewing a Rane MS1b preamp and says it is the best thing since sliced bread 5/5 (it is admittedly a fine preamp for its cost) a reader might put a different weight on that review if the know that it has been reviewed alongside either a Behringer Xenyx or a vintage Neve.

2. Another approach might be to institute a system either (like the GS model) different sub-forums exist for different levels of gear or, perhaps more effectve the marking scale has some kind of system so that prosumer gear has a different wieighting from pro-gear (I don't underestimate how difficult it might be to come up with a workable system but I do think it should be possible)

3. A further idea might be to actually run some gear shootouts from time to time (perhaps shooting out the gear that has previously been reviewed) and invite along forum members so that people can get an idea of how they might play against each other in practice. (I suspect it would also be useful publicity for DV and may lead to increased gear sales but that's another story entirely).

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  #26 (permalink)  
Old 22nd September 2008 , 08:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TrevCircleStudios View Post
I've only quoted this bit but what follows refers to all of your post. I'll ignore the condescending nature of some of the language.
I could easily have said the same of your post Trev. Not sure what is driving the negative vibe towards me. But please PM to discuss if you want to.

Quote:
Perhaps if you'd asked me what I meant instead of ascribing your fears of what I might have meant it might have been a more positive experience for everyone.
Like I said please PM me if I somehow I offended you. None meant sorry.

Quote:
First of all, you actually miss my point(s) not the other way around. While I will take user reviews with a pinch of salt if I read them at all that can not be said for everyone. Some people will absolutely base buying decisions on what is said here (because actualy they are in no position to try alternatives).
Ok fair point but even if one cannot try alternatives what would stop them gathering as much info as they wanted from a Google search after reading a User review?

Quote:
This means that we should tread warily/work out how to get around that in order to minimise that risk. It would also mark this forum above, say, Harmony Central, who rely on often flawed reviews and would, thereby, very likely drive more traffic to us.
We should always be careful yes but again reviews are subjective either way, one person will see a review as flawed another may see the same write up as giving them exactly what they need.

Quote:
My thinking was that actually if this is instituted after careful thought it could be a useful resource and some of those problems could be minimised.
The mods have something in mind for tomorrow so (based on discussions from all on the forum) much progress is being made.

Quote:
I have two or three ideas as starters for ten:

1. If for example as part of the review people would identify what other gear of a similar type they have used regularly it would be clearer how much weight to put on their review and roughly where the piece of gear they are reviewing lies (in what is an admittedly subjective spectrum).
OK

Quote:
Let me give you an example) if for example the reviewer is reviewing a Rane MS1b preamp and says it is the best thing since sliced bread 5/5 (it is admittedly a fine preamp for its cost) a reader might put a different weight on that review if the know that it has been reviewed alongside either a Behringer Xenyx or a vintage Neve.
Do you mean a previous User Review or magazine review?

Quote:
2. Another approach might be to institute a system either (like the GS model) different sub-forums exist for different levels of gear or, perhaps more effectve the marking scale has some kind of system so that prosumer gear has a different wieighting from pro-gear (I don't underestimate how difficult it might be to come up with a workable system but I do think it should be possible)
Sounds like it is worth looking into why not?

Quote:
3. A further idea might be to actually run some gear shootouts from time to time (perhaps shooting out the gear that has previously been reviewed) and invite along forum members so that people can get an idea of how they might play against each other in practice. (I suspect it would also be useful publicity for DV and may lead to increased gear sales but that's another story entirely).
Yes why not? Sounds fine to me I'm sure others would agree.

Again apologies if I upset you Trev. Just PM me if you want. We seem to have got off to a really bad start. Not sure why.
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Old 22nd September 2008 , 08:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TrevCircleStudios View Post
3. A further idea might be to actually run some gear shootouts from time to time (perhaps shooting out the gear that has previously been reviewed) and invite along forum members so that people can get an idea of how they might play against each other in practice. (I suspect it would also be useful publicity for DV and may lead to increased gear sales but that's another story entirely).

T
Trev as usual i value your opinion as it's often in the form of Devils Advocate which essentially is a good and needed thing! not getting to heavily involved in this debate you have going and i say "you" figuratively as really this effects the whole forum but you just air the opinion which others may not. Now back to the matter in hand the last suggestion is golden, how realistic it is i can't say? that is DV's decision but maybe a small disclaimer for the every day reviews Monarch has set up explaining how these reviews are come about, as far as comparing things yes what you are comparing it against should be mentioned but if that is nothing than say so and may be leave it out? but when a gear shoot out is or is ever conducted it can be a feature say monthly, which consists of forum members from for example's sake 3 walks of life, novice, rookie and pro and yes Trev you would be under the Pro section and let them conduct the shoot out so every one gets a voice? please don't crucify me
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old 22nd September 2008 , 08:55 PM
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1.) SSL Alpha-Link MADI SX
2.) Purchased about 7 months ago
3.) Not happy with the results I was getting from two Presonus Firepods
4.) $3,500 (also add about $700 for an RME HDSP 9652, $400 for cables)
5.) Couldn't have been any easier. No guessing, no problems. Just worked. Took a bit of time to get the I/O set up properly, but if you read the manual and do *exactly* what it says, it'll work just fine.
6.) It sounds *unbelievably* good. I like it better than the Aurora's I used
at work for years and about as much as the Lavry Black's. For 24
channels at this quality they could charge another $1,000 and not be
out of the ball park. There are lots of I/O options and all operate simul-
taneously.
7.) It's a little finicky when it comes to clocking; it's very specific in the way
it wants to clock to certain things (via ADAT, wordclock BNC's or MADI).
If it's not syncing you'll know right away.
8.) It'd be awesome if it came in black. That's the only thing I can think of.
9.) Compared to Lynx Aurora it's cleaner, more transparent. Absolutely no exaggeration that I can detect at any point in the spectrum.
10.) Absolutely. No regrets at all. Took a whole lot of guess work out of the mixes from my home studio.
11.) N/A
12.) Cross platform
13.) N/A
14.) Summary: If you're in the market for high-end conversion, this is the box for you, especially if you're wanting to move from ITB to OTB or, like me, a hybrid approach. It's worth every penny.

Frank
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File Type: jpg AlphaLinkMADIAX.jpg (28.7 KB, 1 views)
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Old 22nd September 2008 , 08:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankGIK View Post
1.) SSL Alpha-Link MADI SX
2.) Purchased about 7 months ago
3.) Not happy with the results I was getting from two Presonus Firepods
4.) $3,500 (also add about $700 for an RME HDSP 9652, $400 for cables)
5.) Couldn't have been any easier. No guessing, no problems. Just worked. Took a bit of time to get the I/O set up properly, but if you read the manual and do *exactly* what it says, it'll work just fine.
6.) It sounds *unbelievably* good. I like it better than the Aurora's I used
at work for years and about as much as the Lavry Black's. For 24
channels at this quality they could charge another $1,000 and not be
out of the ball park. There are lots of I/O options and all operate simul-
taneously.
7.) It's a little finicky when it comes to clocking; it's very specific in the way
it wants to clock to certain things (via ADAT, wordclock BNC's or MADI).
If it's not syncing you'll know right away.
8.) It'd be awesome if it came in black. That's the only thing I can think of.
9.) Compared to Lynx Aurora it's cleaner, more transparent. Absolutely no exaggeration that I can detect at any point in the spectrum.
10.) Absolutely. No regrets at all. Took a whole lot of guess work out of the mixes from my home studio.
11.) N/A
12.) Cross platform
13.) N/A
14.) Summary: If you're in the market for high-end conversion, this is the box for you, especially if you're wanting to move from ITB to OTB or, like me, a hybrid approach. It's worth every penny.

Frank
Oh how the other half live
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Old 22nd September 2008 , 09:02 PM
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Oh how the other half live
It's one of the few pieces of high-end gear I own. I pumped gobs of money into my converters, my monitors, my room treatment (all GIK, *before* I worked for GIK), a couple of good preamps, some good mics and some good outboard gear.

Frank
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