Dance music & Swing

[sureno]

So just got my first future music subscription mag through the post today,
i used to be a SOS man but i have to say this mag is much better for my needs i found SOS more for the studio engineer/producer where as this is aimed at the more ITB sequencer. any way having got that off my chest there is an excellent article on "swing" covering all the major DAS ways of achieving this and even comparing the infamous MPC's swing to a leading DAS, which interestingly enough highlights why the MPC has such great swing... but you'll have to buy the mag for that

My question to you the people is,

Is swing used in Dance/house music today and if so to what degree, i have always associated swing to be used in jazz, hip hop and more natural genres of music but iv always thought of electronic music to be very quantised and clinical. i have tried using swing in the past but never been happy with the results? i have always like a pretty straight beat but then i think that may explain why my ex called me a "soulless b@st@rd"

So if anyone has some input on this in the genre it would be most valuable..
do you know what i mean Khazul, Ed Ryan and Modz1

[Khazul]

Allmost all house I do has a nominal swing equivelent to between logic's 16c and 16d settings.

Most trance/progressive house is 16b give or take, however you can get away with straight if you are really careful with the dynamics instead.

I very rarely use just straight, also I tend to swing different sounds differently as well.

In the end, just use whatever fits the sounds you are working with - some sounds (synth arps for eg) just dont work well with a swing without some compensation to their dynamics too.

Sometimes I do go for deliberate clashing of swing and straight for very small sections - its a way to create tension.

[sphelan]

I think the idea is to give the track some more "natural" life rather than strict machinelike sounds.

[sureno]

K, so will you use the swing setting for everything or just particular elements,
so i can presume kick is locked on 4/4 then hats would have swing so every thing else has the same swing or would it all be a mix of straight and swung?

[Khazul]

No - I wont blindly use the same swing - groove is made up of so much more than just swing - dynamics are a huge part of it as well.

The best simple way I can decrivbe it as I have come to understand it is about getting the points of perception of a sound in a mix to fit - that doesnt mean getting the start points of a sound to fit.

Sequencer are rather unnatural things - they start playing a note at a specific time with no awaness of the dynamics of the sound itself. Human player on the other hand tend to play such that specific point in a sound fit with what else is going on around them. In a sequencer that can often mean triggering a sound well before the absolute music time point of it, or actually later if all the other sounds have quite soft dynamics and this sound is much harder.

[sureno]

Originally Posted by Khazul

No - I wont blindly use the same swing - groove is made up of so much more than just swing - dynamics are a huge part of it as well.

The best simple way I can decrivbe it as I have come to understand it is about getting the points of perception of a sound in a mix to fit - that doesnt mean getting the start points of a sound to fit.

Sequencer are rather unnatural things - they start playing a note at a specific time with no awaness of the dynamics of the sound itself. Human player on the other hand tend to play such that specific point in a sound fit with what else is going on around them. In a sequencer that can often mean triggering a sound well before the absolute music time point of it, or actually later if all the other sounds have quite soft dynamics and this sound is much harder.

so you simply use your ears on the part to see what swing will fit correct?
when's your birthday, il get you some cat nip for all the help

[Khazul]

Some of this stuff? http://www.badkittygear.com/catnip_store.shtml

[sureno]

Originally Posted by Khazul

Some of this stuff? http://www.badkittygear.com/catnip_s...ip_store.shtml

broken link

[Khazul]

Edited - try http://www.badkittygear.com/catnip_store.shtml

[sureno]

Originally Posted by Khazul

Edited - try http://www.badkittygear.com/catnip_store.shtml

LMAO you stoner

[modz1]

Good work Khazul.. Yes, dynamics do play an important part in the feel/groove of a part (ie hi-hats). Just program up a simple 909 open/closed hat pattern with all 16ths played, then experiment with higher and lower velocities at different places within the bar.. You'll then hear a straight/rigid pattern take on a new life as it almost pulses with energy.

Applying groove templates say in Logic (16b,c,d,e etc) to some percussive elements certainly gives a more swung feel, but be careful not to apply the same template to all drum parts otherwise it will sound samey and clinical. If certain, and lesser, percussive elements have slightly different settings then some magic can start happening. Sometimes, I'll set perhaps a 16c quantize to a clave part for example, but will then go into the edit window and pick a couple of notes and physically move them to be a 16b or 16d setting. Fun can be had from this experimentation and yet again the golden rule applies, 'if it sounds right, it is right'.

Regarding the groove quantize templates found in the MPC machines, I seem to remember once having those as Logic templates I could import into the quantize settings list.. but that was going back to Logic 5 days.. not sure if I still have them or they've been lost in the ether.. I shall however, investigate..

[sphelan]

Originally Posted by modz1

Good work Khazul.. Yes, dynamics do play an important part in the feel/groove of a part (ie hi-hats). Just program up a simple 909 open/closed hat pattern with all 16ths played, then experiment with higher and lower velocities at different places within the bar.. You'll then hear a straight/rigid pattern take on a new life as it almost pulses with energy.

Applying groove templates say in Logic (16b,c,d,e etc) to some percussive elements certainly gives a more swung feel, but be careful not to apply the same template to all drum parts otherwise it will sound samey and clinical. If certain, and lesser, percussive elements have slightly different settings then some magic can start happening. Sometimes, I'll set perhaps a 16c quantize to a clave part for example, but will then go into the edit window and pick a couple of notes and physically move them to be a 16b or 16d setting. Fun can be had from this experimentation and yet again the golden rule applies, 'if it sounds right, it is right'.

Regarding the groove quantize templates found in the MPC machines, I seem to remember once having those as Logic templates I could import into the quantize settings list.. but that was going back to Logic 5 days.. not sure if I still have them or they've been lost in the ether.. I shall however, investigate..

That's interesting Modz1. I would have presumed that setting different swing parameters on different drum parts would cause clashing or other problems and would have set every part to the same swing if I were to use it.

Reason has groove templets. I've never used them. This is the same thing, isn't it?

[sureno]

Originally Posted by modz1

Regarding the groove quantize templates found in the MPC machines, I seem to remember once having those as Logic templates I could import into the quantize settings list.. but that was going back to Logic 5 days.. not sure if I still have them or they've been lost in the ether.. I shall however, investigate..

yes there is a template for various MPC grooves over at LPH but the install process seems a little too daunting for me so i just use my MPK.

i know different velocity on hats can work wonders as too can an loading the same sample multiple times into a sampler but having different ADSR settings on each?

have also learnt a tremola set to 16th can work a nice groove too and logics delay designer has a good swing function to delay only certain notes as to avoid clashes but not tried it out yet.

so i can take it swing is greatly used in house? will have to try and implement it, always just varied velocity

[Khazul]

Originally Posted by sureno

so i can take it swing is greatly used in house? will have to try and implement it, always just varied velocity

Yes and no - there is some really grooving house this is actually recorded straight (from looking at sampled loops in live), they were just very clever with the dynamics to give an illusion of some swing.

The opposite is also true - very dead stuff with lots of swing.

[sureno]

Originally Posted by Khazul

Yes and no - there is some really grooving house this is actually recorded straight (from looking at sampled loops in live), they were just very clever with the dynamics to give an illusion of some swing.

The opposite is also true - very dead stuff with lots of swing.

ah thats cleared it up then
no seriously i think like most things then just try the shoe to see if it fits, and if it came off a sleeping tramps foot give it a quick wipe