Can any room be effectively treated?

[sureno]

well when i clap it appears quite sharp, smooth quick decay, not much bass??? not that i can tell if there was from a clap?

[Khazul]

Sounds like its way too live. If you perceive a real sharpness and Im interpreting what you say right, then that could be a bit of ringing/very short delay flutter echo thats not being completely broken up by gear and other odd shapes.

Try moving a book shelf (or similar wall furniture) around - that can sometimes break that up and more or less get rid of it as thing like that with odd sharped surfaces act as diffusors.

[sureno]

Originally Posted by Khazul

Sounds like its way too live. If you perceive a real sharpness and Im interpreting what you say right, then that could be a bit of ringing/very short delay flutter echo thats not being completely broken up by gear and other odd shapes.

Try moving a book shelf (or similar wall furniture) around - that can sometimes break that up and more or less get rid of it as thing like that with odd sharped surfaces act as diffusors.

yes i have learnt not to trust what i say either unfortunately everything is pretty fixed, well it sounds sharp when i use my fingers to clap but very flat when i clap cupping my hands, a little more low end too

[FrankGIK]

Here's the short answer:

Trev's right that, at a certain point a room is simply too small to be used. 8'x8'x8', for example. Forget it. You'd literally have to treat every square inch of surface area to make it even *useful*.

As rooms get larger, they get better. 11'x14'x8' is *very* typical for a home studio room, and it can definitely be treated to the point where it's not only useful, but actually pretty good. You could probably get to +/- 10dB of flat in a room like that with a lot of work. A room is industry "flat" at +/-3dB of 0. Very, *very* few rooms get to this point. +/-6 is a much more realistic goal for a professionally designed room. +/-10 is very good for a non-purpose built room.

The larger a room is, the less you have to worry about low end modes. This is because the longer the dimensions are, the lower the fundamental (lowest) mode is, which will be the biggest problem. Every harmonic above it will lose some energy. So if your fundamental mode is down at 10Hz, by the time you get to 100Hz, the room interactions won't be significant. We're talking about rooms that are 23'x31x13'. Everything under these larger rooms needs to be treated in pretty much the same way, which you've all heard me go over again and again, but here it is again:

- Bass traps *at least 4" thick* in all four corners, preferably floor to ceiling.
- Bass traps *at least 4" thick" on the back wall
- Panels behind your monitors; 4" works best here.
- Panels at the first reflection points to your right, left and above your head. 2" is fine, but 4" is better. The second reflection points should be covered as well; they're right behind the first, where the energy from the opposite speaker encounters the hard boundary (i.e., right speaker energy encounters left wall).

Diffusion can be used in larger rooms, but it's not very useful in smaller spaces. Regardless, it shouldn't replace absorptive treatments to control low-end room modes.

Frank

[TrevCircleStudios]

Top man Frank!

[sureno]

Originally Posted by FrankGIK

Here's the short answer:

Trev's right that, at a certain point a room is simply too small to be used. 8'x8'x8', for example. Forget it. You'd literally have to treat every square inch of surface area to make it even *useful*.

As rooms get larger, they get better. 11'x14'x8' is *very* typical for a home studio room, and it can definitely be treated to the point where it's not only useful, but actually pretty good. You could probably get to +/- 10dB of flat in a room like that with a lot of work. A room is industry "flat" at +/-3dB of 0. Very, *very* few rooms get to this point. +/-6 is a much more realistic goal for a professionally designed room. +/-10 is very good for a non-purpose built room.

The larger a room is, the less you have to worry about low end modes. This is because the longer the dimensions are, the lower the fundamental (lowest) mode is, which will be the biggest problem. Every harmonic above it will lose some energy. So if your fundamental mode is down at 10Hz, by the time you get to 100Hz, the room interactions won't be significant. We're talking about rooms that are 23'x31x13'. Everything under these larger rooms needs to be treated in pretty much the same way, which you've all heard me go over again and again, but here it is again:

- Bass traps *at least 4" thick* in all four corners, preferably floor to ceiling.
- Bass traps *at least 4" thick" on the back wall
- Panels behind your monitors; 4" works best here.
- Panels at the first reflection points to your right, left and above your head. 2" is fine, but 4" is better. The second reflection points should be covered as well; they're right behind the first, where the energy from the opposite speaker encounters the hard boundary (i.e., right speaker energy encounters left wall).

Diffusion can be used in larger rooms, but it's not very useful in smaller spaces. Regardless, it shouldn't replace absorptive treatments to control low-end room modes.

Frank

Frank THANK YOU!!!! i now have a much better idea for what i need

[trbguy]

I just found this thread, very good advice thanks. How much can be saved with a vocal booth when recording SE Electronics Reflexion Filter Portable Vocal Bo at DV247.COM in other words are those any good? Looks like I have much to do before I get even resonable sound in my room.

[TrevCircleStudios]

A duvet behind you a reflexion fileter in front of you and a couple of portable bass traps laced strategically around the room can help a lot.

[trbguy]

That seems to be very cost effective solution. How would you postition those bass traps? Basicly for 1 ldc vocal and trombone micing. Mixing is a different story I can do much of it at worlplace.

[Monarch]

Originally Posted by FrankGIK

Here's the short answer:

Trev's right that, at a certain point a room is simply too small to be used. 8'x8'x8', for example. Forget it. You'd literally have to treat every square inch of surface area to make it even *useful*.

As rooms get larger, they get better. 11'x14'x8' is *very* typical for a home studio room, and it can definitely be treated to the point where it's not only useful, but actually pretty good. You could probably get to +/- 10dB of flat in a room like that with a lot of work. A room is industry "flat" at +/-3dB of 0. Very, *very* few rooms get to this point. +/-6 is a much more realistic goal for a professionally designed room. +/-10 is very good for a non-purpose built room.

The larger a room is, the less you have to worry about low end modes. This is because the longer the dimensions are, the lower the fundamental (lowest) mode is, which will be the biggest problem. Every harmonic above it will lose some energy. So if your fundamental mode is down at 10Hz, by the time you get to 100Hz, the room interactions won't be significant. We're talking about rooms that are 23'x31x13'. Everything under these larger rooms needs to be treated in pretty much the same way, which you've all heard me go over again and again, but here it is again:

- Bass traps *at least 4" thick* in all four corners, preferably floor to ceiling.
- Bass traps *at least 4" thick" on the back wall
- Panels behind your monitors; 4" works best here.
- Panels at the first reflection points to your right, left and above your head. 2" is fine, but 4" is better. The second reflection points should be covered as well; they're right behind the first, where the energy from the opposite speaker encounters the hard boundary (i.e., right speaker energy encounters left wall).

Diffusion can be used in larger rooms, but it's not very useful in smaller spaces. Regardless, it shouldn't replace absorptive treatments to control low-end room modes.

Frank

Originally Posted by TrevCircleStudios

Top man Frank!

Agreed! That is a really great post Frank, loads of extremely useful info in there thanks for sharing it!

[TrevCircleStudios]

Originally Posted by trbguy

That seems to be very cost effective solution. How would you postition those bass traps? Basicly for 1 ldc vocal and trombone micing. Mixing is a different story I can do much of it at worlplace.

Depends how many bass traps you have. If, say only one I'd put the duvet behind you around a corner and stand in the corner facing out, then mic, then reflexion filter. Experiment around the corners of the room with where the bass trap gives you best effect. Your ears are king in this. I'll try and draw a little picture below. Dash-lines are wall, dotted lines are duvet:

u = you
m = mic
f = filter
c = centre of room

Here goes:

------------------------- (wall)
I ............................... (duvet)
I . u
I .....m
I .........f
I .
I .
I ....................c

[TrevCircleStudios]

NB the 'I's are supposed to be the wall and the dots going down are supposed to be the duvet

[FrankGIK]

The SE Reflection Filter can be a really effective solution for tough rooms.

Frank

[trbguy]

Wow, thanks! A corner! Looks really good! I've been desperately thinking solution, cause can't have real studio anytime soon.

[TrevCircleStudios]

slightly improved crappy stick drawing above.