Should Newbs.....

[sureno]

I recently watched a Trevor Horn interview and he claimed it is good for beginners getting into the game, should learn how to operate and use all the old analogue gear before using the digital domain comparing it to learning how to drive a manual car then use an automatic!

what do you guys think and why do you think he said this? I haven't had much experience with hardware, a little but not much and as far as tape machines and the really old stuff never! I could imagine it may instill discipline to an extent and may be offer an unrivaled way of learning process's and comprehending the operations of machines and techniques?

Is it worth learning the old skool methods and understanding the gear for newbz getting into this from scratch?

[TrevCircleStudios]

It's certainly worth learning (if you have access to the gear) because, for the most part, software is modelled on hardware (for example a PT channel strip mimics a console strip). If you can't, however, you can't.

[sureno]

Some guys are just so die hard about analogue gear and refuse to transition over to digital, i know it helps but i believe you can learn via digital too just as effectively, sometimes i think it's because the guys who poured there soul into all the analogue gear resent the fact it has just become so easy to get into it?

[TrevCircleStudios]

No I don't think so. I started on this side of the glass in the digital realm. Am by no means an old hand. Having had the opportunities to use both I think people would understand the whole process more readily if they at least understood what's going on in the analogue realm. Simple things like gainstaging for example.

[JAYDMF]

Thats how i learnt and id say its the best way, few of my friends have done it in reverse and although they can pick it up it seems its a lot harder for them to get used to it, especially when it comes to things like EQ and mixing.

One friend for example will go through and change levels on the VSTs, make them work off my hardware, through the berry mixer and the levels are constantly ragged, same with comps (this applies to both sides of the coin but) generally everyone ive let loose on my TCS just had the gain reduction meter going nuts, change what its reading and theyll use it more sensibly as they seem to use their ears rather than eyes, but it seems to me theyre more inclined to use their eyes on analogue gear as theres no nice GUI infront of them, so they just twiddle dials till the VUs are going nuts

[sureno]

i suppose a hands on approach means it is absorbed easier, im surprised you started digitally Trev? and Jay shouldn't you use your ears before relying on visual aids?

[Stagesound]

I'm involved with some training in AV work for schools, and we always start the kids (and teachers) off with analogue sound gear (video, no - there are few if any advantages). It's a lot easier to show someone a channel strip, grab a knob, turn it and let them hear the difference it makes, than to try to explain this strange digital representation of a channel strip on a computer screen. ("Now imagine this is a knob - if we click here we can make it 'turn' and .....").
Even though it consumes acres of space, it's easy to point to a row of knobs on an analogue desk and say "that row controls the sound level for each instrument in the lead singers monitor, and that row is the drummers mix...", than to bring up layers etc. on a digital desk.

Unless you're using something like a 32" monitor, you'll always show more knobs and controls at any point in time on the "real" desk, than you will on the digital one.

We also have used (now defunct) Soundcraft 328 digital desks - we have found that beginners could not cope with the digital controls which switched function depending on what "layer" of the desk they were looking at. People who had already experience on analogue desks had no problem grasping what the digital desk was doing.

[sureno]

see i would of thought using an emulation of a channel strip such as in pro tools mixer is pretty straight forward, almost like a virtual reality, well it is really isn't it? just like airplane pilots use simulators before getting behind the planes cockpit? At the end of the day do you really benefit from learning the old skool way first in todays age of technology?

[Stagesound]

Originally Posted by sureno

see i would of thought using an emulation of a channel strip such as in pro tools mixer is pretty straight forward, almost like a virtual reality, well it is really isn't it? just like airplane pilots use simulators before getting behind the planes cockpit? At the end of the day do you really benefit from learning the old skool way first in todays age of technology?

But doesn't virtual reality "work" because it emulates "real" things which people are familiar with? Aircraft simulators are as you say, a kind of "virtual reality", but they attempt as far as possible, to simulate the "real" environment. The simulator has real knobs, switches, dials etc. just like a genuine aircraft flight deck. Apparently as aircraft have become more computerised, with touch screens etc. instead of knobs and switches, pilots have become more "disconnected" from them. They talk about "it" doing things by itself, as if the aircraft had a mind of its own, instead of being a piece of hardware which reacts predictably to knobs being turned, switches being flicked etc.
Isn't it a bit strange that software has to "emulate" channel strips? And if the software is "pretending" to be a real channel strip, wouldn't it make sense that it's at least as easy (if not easier) to learn on a real one?

From experience of trying to teach beginners what things do on desks, I reckon there's nothing to beat having a real knob, which they can touch and feel and turn, and observe what happens when they do. There's just something more "realistic" about having the thing there in your hands, rather than using a mouse (or even a touchscreen) to move a picture of it!

[Monarch]

Originally Posted by sureno

Is it worth learning the old skool methods and understanding the gear for newbz getting into this from scratch?

I think I would have picked up a good deal of the basics if I had started out with hardware e.t.c but in the internet age we live in there is so much information available to anyone who has the time and interest to find it that will get one up to speed on many aspects of just about anything Music related.

I would probably (given the choice again) had gone down the hardware route first but I don't think it is a stumbling block for anyone just coming into music now. There is a sea of information available that can help any new user.

Just my views of course

[e-vinyl]

Its worth learning of course with hardware. Its easier to move from hardware to software than from software to hardware , at least thats what i think

[Meander]

Personally, I think using outboard gear, as opposed to analogue stops you getting distracted. I find, if I'm using a soft synth (even through a midi controller) that I often end up reaching for my mouse far too often and getting drawn into the comp rather than concentrating on making a patch. I start tweaking drums for example to try and get the synth to sit right, which should be the final effort. I find that I am mixing as I go along, which is way too time consuming and distracting.

Stagesound is spot on too with regards to using your ears as opposed to watching level meters, seems to strangely happen when in front of a computer screen.

[waxxy]

i think trevor horn is correct people should learn with or at least try hardware ..i think even though vsts have come along way i still think they cant compare too a hardware version..ive got a roland juno 6 and theres lots of emulations of junos but none can capture it..i think its the same thing with samplers ive got lots and i must admit i do use them alot now but thats purley because ive not got alot of free time these days but i still think for warmth and feeling the akais pissss all over any sampler out there sure the vsts can have virtually limitless sampling time and have crazy effects but for some reason no matter what gets sampled i still prefer the sound and charactaristics of hardware sampling.

if you cant get hold of hardware then youve no choice stick with what your happiest with but if you ever do get the chance try out or buy some hardware anything will do it can all add to your creative arsenal wether it be a old keyboard such as the junos..a sampler such as the akai 3000xl..a korg ea mark 2 ..any old classic drum machine ..no matter what it is im sure you will have lots more fun using something like that than using a plug in ..i think one of the reasons people rely on plug ins over hardware is the convience they have over hardware ,they can be powered up and ready to go instantly buttrust me look on ebay get something cheap and cheerful and youll not regret it.

[sureno]

funny you mention the akai i had an mpc2500 i thought it definately gave the samples a grainy warm sound but soon discovered the default eq and compressor on the master outs, as soon as i removed them that 'akai' sound disappeared and was fairly transparent. but i do often wish i have a chance to use outboard gear but it's not accesible to me

[terminal3]

Depends on what part of the industry you're interested in.

In post-production audio hardware is virtually all but gone. Analog consoles have been replaced by Icons and D-Controls, the only "quality" analog bits are the microphones used in VO, ADR and foley recording - lots of post houses are perfectly happy with their 192 boxes as preamps for that kind of work. Plug-ins rule the day, mainly because of the speed of which they can be used - nothing ever has to leave the box until opticals are made.

There's something to be said for knowing the ergonomics of the control surfaces, though - it's easier to find your way around one if you know consoles, but the art of using a patchbay is definitely dying (in that field.)

Music is another story of course - hardware is still valued, revered, and used. It's not impossible though to make a great record without much of it compared to yesteryear. A good console is still the centrepiece of a great studio.

The old adage "track on a Neve, mix on an SSL" probably still applies to some degree as well, but you'll find that more than a few mix engineers are staying ITB nowadays. If you want to be a great recording engineer though, which is a different discipline, I think at some point you're gonna have to log some serious hours on as many nice consoles as you can, and you'll DEFINITELY need to know how to wire up that patchbay!