Do you have a good compressor/expander studio unit?

[leecovuk]

Hello,

I'm on a continuing quest to find a compressor/expander that fulfills _all_ the below requirements along with general typical functionality. My typical usage is a 'radio station-like' environment where I run analogue mixer outputs through a compressor/expander to level/optimise them.

The unit must not 'click' _at all_ or cause any similar artefacts on the audio, at any settings. Must be just as good on speech as music.

It can powerfully raise low levels during compression up to limiting, with the aim that the output can have a levelled/optimised very small dynamic range.

Does not 'swallow' on low frequency content, affecting the overall compression.

So, do you have such a unit? Let's forget price for now. I've been through a few units and am yet to be happy with one.

Thanks a lot,
Lee
UK

[modz1]

Well I'm confused here Lee..
Didn't you post an exact same question here back in July..

Which compressor / expander / AGC / leveller?

..and received some quality responses?

[leecovuk]

Hello,

Yes, I maybe should have posted again on that topic.
I'll look again into some ideas Barry suggested there, but generally I think people were suggesting in a higher pro and budget bracket than I am. I'm an amateur at 'hospital radio' level, if you like, although my usage is not specifically that, more hobbyist home studio.

In many ways, I'm revisiting this out of some frustration. The units I've now tried include the Drawmer DL241 (which didn't click but seemed to lack in raising low levels), the Alesis 3630 (that was a dark period) and now the DBX 166XL which annoyingly exhibits clicking.

I'd really love to hear a specific recommendation from somebody who has a unit, say up to £500 new, that fulfills the 3 main criteria I mentioned above in my first post today. There surely must be one .... ? I'm not going to semi-randomly try another and find again it has shortfalls.

Thanks again,
Lee

[dvdan]

Hi Lee
I know where you are coming from with this. Wht you need is an all round compressor that isn't just suited to bas, vox etc... For extremely transparent results your budget is a bit limiting, and it might be worth looking at in the box solutions, but certainly have a look at this:
http://www.dv247.com/invt/12496/ - nice and clean, probably one of the best you can find within your budget and its gained quite a reputation.

cheers, Dan

[leecovuk]

Thanks, Dan, I appreciate your reply.

I've read about the RNC, but I see some comments on the net praising it then others saying it's the worst compressor they've ever bought ... and so again begins the trap I have fallen into a few times before!

Have you personally used it? Does it do its job without 'clicks' or other artefacts like that?

As for 'in the box' solutions, do you mean compression included in a wider audio processor? That would presumably be out of my realistic price range.

The underlying 'moan' here is that I am somewhat incredulous that we apparently have to spend a small fortune to get a unit that just does the job without artefacts. It's not like I'm looking for an amazing signal to noise ratio or anything like that ... just powerful compression/expansion without making the audio sound worse !

Lee

edit: When I say I need a 'powerful' unit that works properly, yes I want significant raising of low levels during compression, but also I say that because many people suggest issues like clicking can be reduced or avoided by turning down the compression ratio, for example. However I have found no success with this logic on the units I've tried, without turning the unit's performance down so low that it's not worth it being in circuit at all.

[Khazul]

dbx comps are something your either like for the task in hand or wont like - they are not generally transparent, but certainly have a pleasent character - and of course great for pumping up the groove of dance music etc.

Do give the RNC a try however - Ive used one breifly and was very impressed with its tranparency on an accoutic guitar recording. Generally thats not what Im after hence never bought one, but for the money - there nothing else like it I think.

A personal favourite in the price range is the dbx1066 - probably a bit blatent for what your after - it can do heavy smooth compression, but I wouldn't call it transparrent - which makes it great in dance music production of course

[TrevCircleStudios]

Your budget is very low and you are asking a lot of a compressor. At your budget I'd agree with Dan, RNC is a a very good option. Realistically the job you have in mind requires something like a cranesong stc8 to pull off (and that is waaay over your budget). Try the rnc and if it doesn't work then start saving your pennies...

[leecovuk]

Hello Khazul,

When you talk about 'transparency' there, do you mean the ability to work as expected without the 'clicks' I've mentioned? Or are you referring to 'noise' as in 'hiss'?
I can live with a minor addition of noise through a unit.

I've read a lot about the 'colour' of a unit ... maybe my perception is wrong, but I would say 'colour' is the unit not doing its job very well.

Yes, I've also read some good things about some other (earlier) dbx models, but not yet enough to reach a confident conclusion. The general concensus on dbx compressors seems to be that they are 'harsh', which presumably means 'not transparent' in the way I'm experiencing with the darned clicking.

I'll back off for a while now and see if other opinions or suggestions come through.

Thanks a lot,
Lee

[leecovuk]

Originally Posted by TrevCircleStudios

Your budget is very low and you are asking a lot of a compressor. At your budget I'd agree with Dan, RNC is a a very good option.

Hello Trev and thanks.
Am I not just expecting a unit to do what it's meant to do?
Surely if you spend £300 or £3000 on a unit it shouldn't negatively impact on the audio. I wonder if this talk of 'colour' has given the industry something of a free range to put out substandard gear on the grounds that 'some people will like the colour'.

Lee

[Khazul]

Originally Posted by TrevCircleStudios

Try the rnc and if it doesn't work then start saving your pennies...

... for a long time!



Just an after thought - what kind of settings are you trying to use - ie threshold relative to signal, attack, decay, ratio, auto release and other equiv type modes or amooth response modes (dbx 'overeasy' - sounds like eggs ugh), low frequency roll off on the sidechain etc/detector part?

Nasty compressors can be coaxed in too provide high and smooth pure dynamic range reduction and the best compressors can be persuaded to be quite nasty with inappropriate settings for the job - im no expert compared to trev here, but its a thought...

[leecovuk]

I will back off and absorb what else may come in after this reply. Really!

Originally Posted by Khazul

what kind of settings are you trying to use

Hello again,

With the 166XL for example, I've tried all ranges of settings. Overeasy on or off, Contour on or off, manual or automatic attack/release, threshold at various levels, compression ratio high or low, etc etc.
Realistically, any compression ratio set at say, less than 4:1, surely isn't really worth using anyway.

Lee

... going away now to absorb the plethora of further posts that will hopefully arrive ... what are _you_ using today that works well, powerfully, and doesn't click?

[terminal3]

Originally Posted by leecovuk

Am I not just expecting a unit to do what it's meant to do? Surely if you spend £300 or £3000 on a unit it shouldn't negatively impact on the audio. I wonder if this talk of 'colour' has given the industry something of a free range to put out substandard gear on the grounds that 'some people will like the colour'.

"Colour" comes from a lot of things, not all of which are undesirable. Transformers, inductors, tubes, whether or not there are caps in the signal path, you name it. It's not a word necessarily associated with "defects."

The Chandler TG1, for example is one of the most coloured compressors in the known universe and nobody will ever say otherwise. It is also known to be an absolutely brilliant bit of kit - well designed and with an awesome, unique sound you can't get elsewhere. It is also eye-wateringly expensive compared to your budget.

As far as "negative" impact goes you're getting into subjective territory - one man's over-overdriven tube is another man's entire raison d'etre.

"Transparency" and "colour" are two opposite, yet equally useful ends of the scale. Transparent compression is clearly what you're after - and indeed, it is the "classic" definition of compression. Purely dynamics control, nothing else.

Unfortunately, a lot of engineers now use compressors not only for dynamics control but for tone-shaping as well - and that's when the colour becomes something they want. Manufacturers are competing for this bit of the market as well.

I would say the RNC a good bet. The DAV BG6 also does transparent compression, but it has far fewer controls and settings than the RNC and that might be a downside for you.

A second-hand TC Electronic Finalizer might also be worth looking into (used it falls just above your budget, new unfortunately it's way outside. As it's a multi-fx unit of sorts, it's a different animal entirely, but it has a multi-band compressor built in so you can really focus on low-end where necessary. That said, not everyone loves 'em. Exercise caution when using.

[terminal3]

Originally Posted by leecovuk

I will back off and absorb what else may come in after this reply. Really!


Hello again,

With the 166XL for example, I've tried all ranges of settings. Overeasy on or off, Contour on or off, manual or automatic attack/release, threshold at various levels, compression ratio high or low, etc etc.
Realistically, any compression ratio set at say, less than 4:1, surely isn't really worth using anyway.

I've read a bit about the 166XL and the clicks are part of what could be considered a design defect, you'll never get rid of them, so despite anything else that's good about it it won't do it for you. The 160 series is better-made, but I would call them "coloured."

Also, using lower ratios than 4:1 is absolutely worth using in some circumstances - anything resembling mastering, for one - usually you'd start at 1.5:1 and maybe gently increase it. When I work on vocals I start at 2:1 and see what happens. It often stays at 3:1 at the most extreme. So don't underestimate the usefulness of low compression ratios depending on the source material. Sometimes it's all you need! Of course, for your purposes, that may be moot anyway.

[FrankGIK]

The RNC is what you're looking for. Put that bad boy on "Super-Nice" mode and watch the magic happen. To do better you'll have to spent five times as much. There's also the DBX 160...it can be had on ebay for $350 or so usually.

Frank

[leecovuk]

Hello again and thanks very much for these useful and interesting further replies. All helpful as well as widening my understanding.
Can I make clear that my stance isn't 'arrogance' which maybe my tone comes close to; I'm just trying to finally force some kind of clear resolution to my problem.


So, realistically, it seems down to either the RNC (any specific model or is there just the one?) or the dbx 160 of which I see there were a few variants.
These are also the ones I previously considered as my 'next attempts' before re-posting here.

To those of you who have the RNC, for my clarity:-
- It can compress powerfully in 'normal mode' with no clicking or unexpected artefacts? This would be ideal for me, in this area.
- Does Supernice mode reduce its ability to bring up very low levels? The dbx 166XL's Overeasy mode does a little, which I appreciate makes some sense due to the compression being that bit gentler in that mode.
- How about how the compression performs on content including (moderate) low frequency/bass? Does it 'swallow' the audio as a result or have a mode such as the 166XL's Contour function which goes towards avoiding this?

To those of you have a dbx 160 series unit:-
(please be so kind as to state which specific model you have)
- What specifically does its 'colour' or 'lack of transparency' do to your audio? Are we talking 'clicking'?
- Also, same question as above regarding LF/bass handling.

Many thanks; I'm getting there! If my next choice doesn't please me I'm going to give up and really try to get my original LX20 refurbished, or just put up with having to tap the controls every day or so to shift the aged contacts.


Lee

PS There is apparently a known fix for the dbx 166XL clicking. Before re-posting here I heard about it from posts on the US-oriented gearslutz dot com forum. I might not be allowed to post the url here, but you could look there for the recently active topic. I would actually consider that fix if I found a UK technician who knew how to do it for a reasonable price. I've written off pursuing that idea so far on the assumption I wouldn't find anybody, but it seems it would make the 166XL a much better unit. I would likely then be happy with it.