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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 14th September 2008 , 06:53 PM
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wow shane, i can understand how you feel about classical training killing inspiration in a genre like dance because something that may sound good in a dance track, a good chord progression etc may not strictly follow the classical rules so in theory it shouldn't work but it does. so if you followed strict classical training you wouldn't be able to explore that route. am i making any sense here, cos im starting to loose myself???

but i must admit i do envy those educated in music, im 27 and only wish i didn't flunk out of school but hindsight is a b!tch and i just get on with it now. may be the grass isn't always greener on the other side but it sure looks good from here
Yes, I agree. I know the rules - of one system - very well. But they don't often transfer over to another system. This can, as you said, close the doors to certain possibilities. I think that if I had studied jazz harmony my compositions would be richer in that area. But for dance music, how important is the harmony? There may only be one or two chords in a whole tune. I listen to something and I think "that's 32 bars of the same chord - it should be as boring as hell". But of course there are other things going on in other layers in the tune.

So I think I'll do some dance music production - but I have to learn a whole new system. I have to not use things I would normally use. I have to make it fit with that style etc. This happens with everything I know, but you get what I'm saying.

I think we have to becareful here too because we are talking about many different things at the same time. This is where the other thread was going also. There is the composition or songwriter in me and there is the music producer. How important is theory vs experience in these? And is it the same for each? I don't think so. From what I have been gathering since I joined these forums is that knowing what a certain mic should sound like with a certain amp going through a certain preamp etc etc is not the full story. And to actually set it up is much more valuable than reading it in a book on music production.
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Old 14th September 2008 , 07:01 PM
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Yes, I agree. I know the rules - of one system - very well. But they don't often transfer over to another system. This can, as you said, close the doors to certain possibilities. I think that if I had studied jazz harmony my compositions would be richer in that area. But for dance music, how important is the harmony? There may only be one or two chords in a whole tune. I listen to something and I think "that's 32 bars of the same chord - it should be as boring as hell". But of course there are other things going on in other layers in the tune.

So I think I'll do some dance music production - but I have to learn a whole new system. I have to not use things I would normally use. I have to make it fit with that style etc. This happens with everything I know, but you get what I'm saying.

I think we have to becareful here too because we are talking about many different things at the same time. This is where the other thread was going also. There is the composition or songwriter in me and there is the music producer. How important is theory vs experience in these? And is it the same for each? I don't think so. From what I have been gathering since I joined these forums is that knowing what a certain mic should sound like with a certain amp going through a certain preamp etc etc is not the full story. And to actually set it up is much more valuable than reading it in a book on music production.
i think that this forum can appeal to two types of people (others too), the sound engineer or the music producer. but yes your right im not going off topic here (yes for once i hear you cry). but those who have studied music properly i would imagine deal with the production side, the composition etc.

(yes i am aware producers should have a good knowledge of their equipment and vice versa for engineers to know how a producer works)
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Old 14th September 2008 , 07:06 PM
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I was going to raise that but didn't wanna wind anyone up. I think tackling something like Dance music with no experience of any description other than that gained mixing and clubbing could be an advantage of sorts because there is nothing in the brain to say 'no, you can't do that'.
Then, at times when I am holding my head and trying not to put my tea upside down on my laptop I wish I knew what I was doing.
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Old 14th September 2008 , 07:11 PM
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I was going to raise that but didn't wanna wind anyone up. I think tackling something like Dance music with no experience of any description other than that gained mixing and clubbing could be an advantage of sorts because there is nothing in the brain to say 'no, you can't do that'.
Then, at times when I am holding my head and trying not to put my tea upside down on my laptop I wish I knew what I was doing.
yes valid point, its your ear that should always be your first port of call but i was told the advantage of knowing your stuff is that you can use your ear to create something and dissect it to understand it then have the ability to know where to go from there, add suspense, a lift etc etc
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Old 14th September 2008 , 07:11 PM
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That's why I think there are composers and there are producers...and there are those of us who think or want to do it ALL!!

And don't forget Paul there are a million and one ways to learn something! It doesn't always have to be formally.

Maybe that which we learn by ourselves sticks better than that which someone teaches us in a class. I feel I have been learning quite a lot in the past couple of weeks from the conversations here and then going doing further research online around the topics that arise. Preamps, for example, before I asked the question Which Preamp? I would have gone and bought something focusrite. Now I have a whole new perspective - and one based on other people's experience.
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Old 14th September 2008 , 07:14 PM
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That's why I think there are composers and there are producers...and there are those of us who think or want to do it ALL!!

And don't forget Paul there are a million and one ways to learn something! It doesn't always have to be formally.

Maybe that which we learn by ourselves sticks better than that which someone teaches us in a class. I feel I have been learning quite a lot in the past couple of weeks from the conversations here and then going doing further research online around the topics that arise. Preamps, for example, before I asked the question Which Preamp? I would have gone and bought something focusrite. Now I have a whole new perspective - and one based on other people's experience.
so i got to ask you the million $ question, if you could start over and do it all again would you have followed a path in education and learnt what you did?
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Old 14th September 2008 , 07:15 PM
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As my Chemistry teacher once told me; "There is no better way too learn than blowing your own eyebrows off". The sentiment is relavent, the actual quote....not so much.
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Old 14th September 2008 , 07:20 PM
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so i got to ask you the million $ question, if you could start over and do it all again would you have followed a path in education and learnt what you did?
YES!

But, knowing what I know now, and given the opportunities available now - types of course, technology etc - I would choose more carefully exactly what I would study. The trouble with formal education is that there is a lot of "filler" content that sometimes is not useful at the end of the day. I don't think you ever find the perfect course or degree etc. They are made for the masses and to make money. To find the perfect course for me is impossible because it doesn't exist. It would have to be designed and implemented according to my ]needs and desires. Formal education isn't really into that!
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Old 14th September 2008 , 07:23 PM
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YES!

But, knowing what I know now, and given the opportunities available now - types of course, technology etc - I would choose more carefully exactly what I would study. The trouble with formal education is that there is a lot of "filler" content that sometimes is not useful at the end of the day. I don't think you ever find the perfect course or degree etc. They are made for the masses and to make money. To find the perfect course for me is impossible because it doesn't exist. It would have to be designed and implemented according to my ]needs and desires. Formal education isn't really into that!
but you would rather be taught then self taught right? (if a bespoke coarse could be achieved)
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Old 14th September 2008 , 07:24 PM
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I should add though that the grounding I got in what I studied formally and what I added to it has given me the resources and tools to go and tackle anything else I now feel like exploring. Understanding classical harmony is very useful from when I want to compose a film score or when I want to exploer jazz harmony. Music notation I use even in my DAW - after I have played in a line I can check it rhythmically for example. The approach that "if it sounds right it is right" works too. So I suppose I have two tools I can use on a given concept.

Basically I suppose anything you learn can be useful somehow. If not you can always do the opposite and you come up with something new.
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Old 14th September 2008 , 07:29 PM
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Going to college and uni is not the be-all and end-all of education. You learn to educate yourself from all activities in which you endeavour.

I was taught piano, and self-taught on various other instruments. I got into production and synths when I was around 13 or so, but I didn't take music as a GCSE. I even left college a few months into my Music Tech National Diploma so I could earn money to fund my interest in music.

The reason I went back at the age of 18, was because I realised I was working in a factory way too long, and I needed to prove to myself that I could do this course, and that I could go on to uni.

However, I'm just coming up to 25 years old and I'm worried that my education has stood in the way of me getting into the industry at a younger age. So, I suppose we all have some doubts about the methods by which we've travelled our paths. But, like you said above, the grass is always greener on the other side.

On the upside, I did learn a lot of skills I would never have imagined previously. Although, maybe my skillset would be totally different if I hadn't gone to uni... always two sides to the coin. The main thing is to not compare yourself to others, or look in hindsight; it's all time wasted, when really all you need to better yourself is to continue with the things you love doing, and realise that what you do is good. If it isn't, then look to remedy it. Be happy with the choices you've made, or move on to better choices.
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Old 14th September 2008 , 07:30 PM
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I should add though that the grounding I got in what I studied formally and what I added to it has given me the resources and tools to go and tackle anything else I now feel like exploring. Understanding classical harmony is very useful from when I want to compose a film score or when I want to exploer jazz harmony. Music notation I use even in my DAW - after I have played in a line I can check it rhythmically for example. The approach that "if it sounds right it is right" works too. So I suppose I have two tools I can use on a given concept.

Basically I suppose anything you learn can be useful somehow. If not you can always do the opposite and you come up with something new.
ok ok stop showing off now
what do you teach exactly?
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Old 14th September 2008 , 07:35 PM
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Going to college and uni is not the be-all and end-all of education. You learn to educate yourself from all activities in which you endeavour.

I was taught piano, and self-taught on various other instruments. I got into production and synths when I was around 13 or so, but I didn't take music as a GCSE. I even left college a few months into my Music Tech National Diploma so I could earn money to fund my interest in music.

The reason I went back at the age of 18, was because I realised I was working in a factory way too long, and I needed to prove to myself that I could do this course, and that I could go on to uni.

However, I'm just coming up to 25 years old and I'm worried that my education has stood in the way of me getting into the industry at a younger age. So, I suppose we all have some doubts about the methods by which we've travelled our paths. But, like you said above, the grass is always greener on the other side.

On the upside, I did learn a lot of skills I would never have imagined previously. Although, maybe my skillset would be totally different if I hadn't gone to uni... always two sides to the coin. The main thing is to not compare yourself to others, or look in hindsight; it's all time wasted, when really all you need to better yourself is to continue with the things you love doing, and realise that what you do is good. If it isn't, then look to remedy it. Be happy with the choices you've made, or move on to better choices.
thats a very inspiring post!!! im glad you guys have all input your opinions into this thread, i have always found myself asking this question and always envying the educated. but in a way it has driven me to get where i am now not being any where spectacular but better than where i was 2 years ago
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Old 14th September 2008 , 07:35 PM
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but you would rather be taught then self taught right? (if a bespoke coarse could be achieved)
Not so easy to say. I think it depends on the music you want to make. If I wanted to write a symphony, sitting down with an orchestra or a score and trying to teach myself how to do it would be difficult unless I was a prodigy (and I am NOT). Alternatively, I could go an buy or borrow all the books I could find on how to compose in that style and then try to teach myself. However, it might be quicker or more useful to find someone who has already done all that and get them to teach me what I exactly need to know, without all the waffle.

If I want to sing in a pub with my acoustic guitar, then I could probably get away with buying a chord book and some sheet music and then work out some tunes to allow me do that. I'm not knocking people who use the three-chord trick, but you don't need to know about dissonant chords nor how many symphonies Beethoven wrote.

What would I prefer taught or self-taught? Both because I think they are complimentary and don't have to be put in opposition. It's useful to debate. Many academics would argue against self-taught just as many classical musit fans would claim that rock or jazz is the "devil's" music and music for the uneducated.

As a music teacher with many many years of experience, I have used my experiences and what it lacks to encourage my students to learn and develop their skills in what ever way helps them.

I really think at the end of the day (or night...time for a little light humour!), it's what you produce musically that's of value and now how you learned to do it. I don't ask nor do I care if my favourite artists are taught or self-taught. I don't care if I hear some one playing a tune if they learned it from music notation or from a chord sheet or from listening to it on a CD to recreate it. It's what it sounds like that I'm interested in.
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Old 14th September 2008 , 07:37 PM
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There's a time lapse...while I was writing the last post I've missed what you guys were saying...sorry if there is a lack of coherency
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