Waves plug ins: over priced or under appreciated?

[sureno]

Well when ever some one mentions waves plug ins there seems to be a reaction similar to the advert for marmite, people either love or hate them. this observation hasn't just been on here, so lets here what you have to say on them, good points and bad points?
i personally quite fancy the "classic studio collection" although far to rich for my blood at the moment. i would agree they are very expensive BUT are they over priced?
with some native bundles ranging to over £3000 surely there has to be some validity to the pricing?

lets hear your opinions

[terminal3]

Mostly overpriced. Not only is there the buy-in but there's ongoing WUP fees as well, although that whole system has been improved somewhat, you can pay every year and never get anything back because of it. Mercury is somewhat of a better buy, even those it's disgustingly expensive, every new plug-in they've released since has been given to Mercury users for free.

Anyway, lots are overrated, now too.

Not always, though. At one time they were virtually the only game in town, and that's how they built their reputation.

SCC is terrific. I love it. Very useful, sounds great. It is expensive but it's flexible, and while it's not necessarily exactly like the hardware either, it still stands up in it's own right.

But Gold, Platinum, all that - those are way-old plug-ins, all of which can be replaced by other products.

I have a few other Waves bundles - Musician's 1 (bought for $40 on a weird two-hour sale the Waves online store appeared to have once) - I never use it. I have MaxxVolume, (bought with the NARAS discount) which I thought would be useful for very fast dialogue compression in some of the post work I do. I don't really use it.

I have Renaissance Maxx as well. I bought it because at the time a couple sound designers I was doing some work with were using it - a lot - so it was easier just to get it for compatibility. The plug-ins are OK - more interesting than the stock stuff in Gold, for example, but in many cases they've been outmoded and I no longer use them. Used to use Renn De-Esser a lot, now the Massey and/or the Eiosis ones do the job.

Anyway, if I had to do it all over again, I'd ONLY look at SCC, and even then, I dunno. The Duende SSL sound is better, to my ears, the API stuff just makes me want the hardware to make up for the shortcomings in software (I would LOVE a real-live 2500), and the V-Series is the least-used anyway.

[sureno]

very interesting reply T3, i myself favour the ssl stuff the most, v-collection and api the least. i too have heard companies like URS is an excellent equivalent to a lot of the stuff waves offer.

i suppose waves still carries some sort of stigma drawing people in but i too have heard stories about regular paid updates with out much to offer in return.
i dont have enough experience with waves to understand the issues some people have with them fully

[terminal3]

Originally Posted by sureno

very interesting reply T3, i myself favour the ssl stuff the most, v-collection and api the least. i too have heard companies like URS is an excellent equivalent to a lot of the stuff waves offer.

i suppose waves still carries some sort of stigma drawing people in but i too have heard stories about regular paid updates with out much to offer in return.
i dont have enough experience with waves to understand the issues some people have with them fully

The URS "equivalents" are not quite as nice as the Waves versions, but I suspect that's the product of being older code. DSP has improved vastly since those were released.

My order of preference is SSL, then API, then V-series. I still use the SSL stuff even though I often prefer the Duende because it can be a different "sound" (they're based on different hardware).

Issues? Well, it's this - you pay WUP, annually (or worse) - it's anywhere from $30 to $200, depending on how long you've been out of it for - and that's per bundle. If you're paid up, you get any and all updates released while you're paid up. This includes bug fixes, but it can occasionally mean free new plug-ins - they released a new one for the SSL bundle actually this year (G series channelstrip) which was free to WUP'd users.

Anyway, if you don't pay it, the WUP fee slowly increases (to a max of $200) and not only can you not have updates but you can't have tech support, any downloads, license transfers etc.

Some people have issues with this, of course.

They historically have also had pretty draconian policies wrt license transfers, demos, iLok policies etc although since version 6 these have been relaxed substantially, I suspect the user backlash was finally catching up with them.

Finally (with the negatives) they have a policy of chasing down pirates personally and suing them - this mostly applies to studios - they would send agents with hidden cameras etc. and ask to see their Waves plug-ins in action - if there was any evidence they were cracked, the studio being visited would get a nasty surprise from Waves' solicitors. I don't condone piracy of course but this is a pretty dodgy method of policing it...

Anyway, onward.

They've introduced a new thing too for WUP'd users called TLC - this is sort of like insurance - basically, every three months you need to sync your iLok and get current licenses, or your plug-ins will stop working. However, if your iLok is lost or stolen, you're OK because those licenses expire, so Waves will actually replace them for you. The downside of course is that you have to obtain those new licenses every three months (with a 7-day grace period), but it seems like an interesting new development in the problem of not being able to get replacement licenses easily if your iLok disappears.

That's the short version of the Waves backstory which has caused a bit of controvery on the net. Do a Google search for "Waves WUP" to read the nasty stuff if you're still interested!

[sureno]

I think you summed it up pretty well, wow very interesting read T3.
i think the SCC bundle will be on my list for a while till they come down in price. by the sounds of it the WUP can have it's good points.

i heard about their under cover piracy investigations which is quite amusing tbh a "you've been framed" type situation

the 3 month renewal policy policy is certainly a novel approach to combating stolen/lost iLoks, i can just imagine waves telling customers to wait out the remaining 3 months before receiving the licenses again, should provoke some interesting responses from users

Thanks again T3 for updating me on waves

[cane creek]

I mainly use UAD/Powercore and USR plugins in my "in-the-box" set-up.

Waves plugin's are good , at my friends place i love using the Waves SSL plugins the channel strip sounds superb and i was very very very tempted to buy it the only reason why i won't buy it is because of waves WUP policy it has really put me and many others off their products i personally think its just pure greed.
Without WUP id of definatly bought Waves SSL

[cane creek]

When i think back now all the software ive bought and the stuff i just dont use now.
Knowing what i know now if i was starting all over again from scratch id buy the "URS channel strip pro" and build everything around that.

URS CSP is one hell of a plugin , its over looked by many it just needs tweeking to sound like just about anything else outhere.

[TrevCircleStudios]

T3 pretty much nailed it. They are pretty average as far as quality goes (the uad ones are mostly better for my money and even bomb factory aren't a serious step down) and the wup charge just goes against the grain.

For my part I'm slowly trying to build up my outboard collection so I can do my mix with hardware plugins. The money a mercury bundle would cost me will buy me a goodly number of hardware units with real mojo.

[cane creek]

Originally Posted by terminal3

They've introduced a new thing too for WUP'd users called TLC - this is sort of like insurance - basically, every three months you need to sync your iLok and get current licenses, or your plug-ins will stop working. However, if your iLok is lost or stolen, you're OK because those licenses expire, so Waves will actually replace them for you. The downside of course is that you have to obtain those new licenses every three months (with a 7-day grace period), but it seems like an interesting new development in the problem of not being able to get replacement licenses easily if your iLok disappears.

This sounds really good but what if all the ilok plugins i own suddenly decided to introduce WUP , URS/Soundtoys/overloud/softube/Abbeyroad .. id have to get a second job.... bottom line is waves are greedy.

[waxxy]

i think the waves stuff is way over priced and over rated ..sure a year or so ago they ere the industry tandard but times have moved amazingly fast and theres plug ins which blow them out the water ..i personally think uad stuff is better sounding..and another reason i dont like waves stuff is the guis are cheap and nasty looking if your paying 3000 pounds you want the stuff to look nice waves look like netto plug ins lol

[rsnuk]

Originally Posted by waxxy

i think the waves stuff is way over priced and over rated ..sure a year or so ago they ere the industry tandard but times have moved amazingly fast and theres plug ins which blow them out the water ..i personally think uad stuff is better sounding..and another reason i dont like waves stuff is the guis are cheap and nasty looking if your paying 3000 pounds you want the stuff to look nice waves look like netto plug ins lol

With you on that man, although some of their new vintage modelled stuff doesn't look that bad, most of their plugins look and are old.

I guess they thought that by bundling all of their outdated plugins in mercury it somehow made it worth 4-6 thousand pounds.

It's quality when it comes to plugins not quanity that counts, i think of the mercury bundle as abit of a joke.

Waves are definitely greedy and definitely not the best out there anymore.

I really like the look of the UAD stuff personally.

In anycase, while it's quality and not quantity that counts, quality is relative to desired result, i'm sure waves can be used to good effect.

Again i'll mention their older plugins look nasty, they could have atleast updated the GUI's if they want them to be taken seriously, some might say judge not a book by it's cover, but i would say that GUI's are a sign of how much pride a company takes in their work.

So in conclusion my feeling are newer stuff still competitive(ssl api v-series), older stuff has it's place and the company has done alot for the digital music world but greed has eroded a large part of it's soul...

[terminal3]

The problem though is that you can't change stuff, it's a big no-no for devs to modify existing tools. The reason for that is recall - let's say I did a mix five years ago with plug-ins available at the time, and I need to reload it to do a remix for some reason now. If the plug-in has been changed, either from a GUI standpoint or worse, from a sonic standpoint (even if it's been arguably improved) - it's different, and I can't necessarily translate it. So there's good reason for leaving the tools the way they are. The problem is that people don't always see past the fact that dated DSP = lousy sound.

[sureno]

well it seems to be that the majority are saying waves are more hassle than they are worth, evidently good plug ins no knocking that but not to the realms of the asking price and support policy. UAD seem to be creeping up more and more now and with the release of the UAD2 im sure this has been enforced even more so. I once considered waves as "the professionals" choice but as time progressed it turns out to be more so the plug in "only the professionals" could afford not saying that this justifies the price.

i wonder how long Waves will survive in the ever expanding plug in market

[terminal3]

Originally Posted by sureno

i wonder how long Waves will survive in the ever expanding plug in market

If they keep innovating, a while. I had virtually written them off a couple years ago and them from nowhere the SSL bundle was released, and quite frankly, for software, it's excellent. They followed that up with the API and Neveish ('V') plugs, and since have done the JJP stuff. While people continue to lust after those vintage emulations, that stuff will do well. They need to be the best at it, though, and whereas ten years ago there was no competition to speak of whatsoever, now they're definitely up against it.

[sureno]

Originally Posted by terminal3

If they keep innovating, a while. I had virtually written them off a couple years ago and them from nowhere the SSL bundle was released, and quite frankly, for software, it's excellent. They followed that up with the API and Neveish ('V') plugs, and since have done the JJP stuff. While people continue to lust after those vintage emulations, that stuff will do well. They need to be the best at it, though, and whereas ten years ago there was no competition to speak of whatsoever, now they're definitely up against it.

id be interested to see how the v-collection stands up with the UAD nevana plugs?, as many know iv always been drawn towards the SSC by waves