Modeled amps

[sphelan]

I see on another thread that people are listing their guitar rigs and equipment. Lots of expensive equipment being listed.

I wonder what is the opinion on products such as Guitar Rig, Amplitube, Gearbox, etc.

I have a Fender Squire Strat and Guitar Rig 3.

Can this set up compare with a top of the range strat connected to a top of the range amp with a top of the range microphone?

Is directly plugging in my guitar into my Focusrite Saffire interface and loading up GR3 a poor man's way to go?

How much better quality would I get with the top of the range gear?

[terminal3]

I use Guitar Rig 3, but if the guitar is to be prevalent in the mix and I have time, I'll almost always re-amp it.

The problem with amp sims is that they sound good on their own, but the minute you start layering them things get messy quick. All sorts of mud.

That said, with a bit of tweaking occasionally I'll print something I've done with a plug-in.

Bass is another story for some reason, I love IK's Ampeg SVX, use that in finals all the time!

[sphelan]

So do you think that an expensive guitar is not a necessity when using software?

[terminal3]

Originally Posted by sphelan

So do you think that an expensive guitar is not a necessity when using software?

It's not a necessity (very few things are a necessity), but it will sound better. Better pickups will be a big part of that...

[Dave Boulden]

A more expensive guitar is more likely to be better set-up... have a better action with more accurate intonation... that will also improve your sound and, you would hope, your playing technique.

[TrevCircleStudios]

I have a Fender Squire Strat and Guitar Rig 3.

Can this set up compare with a top of the range strat connected to a top of the range amp with a top of the range microphone?

It won't compare if the equipment is in the hands of an engineer who knows what he is doing and has a good room at his disposal. Digital comes closest to sounding decent on lead work. It doesn't get close when chords are being played or tracks being stacked.

That said, if you don't have the above items then don't sweat it. Make the best of what you can with the equiment available to you. Aspire for better but don't convince yourself that what you have will hold you back as it probably won't be at this stage.

[sphelan]

I am starting to think, that, with my set up in the corner of my living room, I can probably only aspire to composing or recording demos of my material which I would then have to re-record in a "more" professional studio later on.

[terminal3]

Originally Posted by sphelan

I am starting to think, that, with my set up in the corner of my living room, I can probably only aspire to composing or recording demos of my material which I would then have to re-record in a "more" professional studio later on.

Don't let us perfectionist studio types all talk you out of accomplishing anything!

When Pink Floyd made The Division Bell in 1993/1994, they did temp/guide tracks of all Nick Mason's drum parts on David Gilmour's boat. They then went into Abbey Road to "re-do" it.

They just couldn't get the drums to sound right at Abbey Road.

Abbey freakin' Road! Yes, THAT Abbey Road!

The drums that made the final record are the original temp ones that they did on the Astoria [the boat].

(Mind you, not every boat has its own Neve console - DG's does, but that's beside the point.)

On the Rush song 'Cold Fire' from Counterparts (1993) the guitar solo is an edit made up from a bunch of scratch DAT recording that Alex Lifeson was strictly using for writing purposes. When they went into the studio to "do it properly" they also could not attain the magic of the demo stuff he'd done at home.

There are just two relatively obscure examples. I'm sure there are better ones throughout history, I just can't think of any off the top of my head.

But it shows you that sometimes a vibe, a moment is captured in what you think is just a 'demo' scenario and you'll never be able to replicate it.

So write the music - do the best you can - and then see what needs doing properly, and see if you even CAN do it 'properly.'

[Dave Boulden]

A more contemporary example would be KT Tunstall's album "Acoustic Extravaganza" which was recorded entirely in someone's living room by choice.

KT Tunstall // Acoustic Extravaganza

[RedDavid]

I don't use anything but Guitar Rig when I'm recording electric parts. I love it.

The problem with recording an amp is that I can never get it to sound exactly right. It's just such a pain to mic up an amp and get the balance correct. I mean, you set the amp up the way you want it to sound, you hit record, and it all sounds absolutely painful. You move the mic around and, an hour later, it sounds god through the headphones, but guff in the mix. So you have to tweak the amp settings more, and repeat, and all that. And then, when it's all done, it still sounds flat, and in the quiet bits, you can hear all sorts of junk, like the whirr of the amp's fan, the sound of guitar strums, the sound of foodsteps, all sorts.

Or, I can put my headphones on, plug the guitar in, play along to the track with the guitar plugged in, listen, and tweak the guitar track from there. I've scored some absolute killer guitar tracks by swapping amp models, fiddling reverb effects, upping (or lowering) the gain, all sorts. It's fantastic.

When you're recording, you don't want to capture the clearest sound man can capture. There's lousy recording, and there's good recording. A lousy recording will hurt the ears, a good recording sounds good to all but the most picky of listeners. What matters most in a good recording the subtleties of how good the recording is, but how well it captures a moment of brilliance.

Now, you can use real-world gear and you can spend a full day just setting up, doing take after take, to get a guitar part exactly right. Or you can set the levels with a few test strums, fire up your DAW, hit record, and just let rip. Do a few takes, and then just sit back, and play with the knobs until it sounds perfect. The magic, the enthusiasm and the energy in your figures, is captured. And you've got that killer mix of near-live quality of performance, plus near-prostudio level of sound quality. It wins.

Nowadays, the only time I don't use GuitarRig is when I'm recording acoustic or bass.

[terminal3]

One interesting thing I did once was to try and recreate my actual pedalboard/amp setup (which I think sound fantastic, of course) in Guitar Rig 3 by using the most similar models/components.

It. Sounded. Awful. Noisy, humming, muddy, the effects were all wrong, there wasn't one tiny aspect of it that replicated by pedal chain into my blues jr.

So there's a lesson there - sometimes what works in analogue setups in reality doesn't work in the digital realm.

[sphelan]

My setup is BASIC! And from what I have been reading on this forum, to set up a DECENT home studio, I would have to spend a fair bit of cash.

If my Squire Strat can't give me the quality that a Strat costing a couple of grand will give me, then I should probably buy a Strat. But by going that road I am still not going to get much better quality if I plug the expensive Strat into Guitar Rig...so I would need to spend more money and buy a traditional amp set up. After that, I would need to connect a good mic. What I have are one each of: Shure SM57, Shure SM56, AKG C1000S, AKG C 3000B and a Rode NT1 A. So I would probably have to buy a "better" mic. What good is that if I don't have a good preamp. At the moment I connect directly to my Focusrite Saffire!

Summing up: to get a "better" sound from better pickups as you said terminal3, wouldn't I be entering into a spiralling tunnel of buying more equipment? Just buying a better guitar, amp, microphone and preamp could cost me 5k. And then maybe I would need a better audio interface!! And what about a better computer?

Where does it end?

Should I just win the lottery and start from scratch?

Oh, I forgot to mention that I live in a two-bedroom apartment in Spain! Obviously, I would need to get a mortgage to buy a house where I could have my own dedicated music space.

HHHEEEELLLLPPPPPP!!!!!!

[terminal3]

I'm afraid it never ends.

Now, the good news is that quality recording equipment has never been more accessible, or more cheap!

The even better news is that you can do just fine with what you have.

Honestly, 90% of what anyone can achieve can be achieved with modern basic setups and attention to careful recording and mixing techniques.

It's that last 10% that's a bit more elusive. I'd say actually the money spent to get from 90-98% or so of that "100% professional record sound" is going to be at least a few times that of the first 90%, and then the top 2% is stratospheric, getting into massive amounts of high-end room treament, Neve consoles, Prism converters, vintage Neumann microphones, etc.

My tip is to start with your 90%, slowly build up to 98%, then spend the last 2% of the quality chase not on your own stuff but on hiring a nice studio to finish your work - whether that would be drum tracking, professional mixing with tonnes of outboard, or even mastering.

But - remember - it never ends.

[TrevCircleStudios]

The problem with recording an amp is that I can never get it to sound exactly right. It's just such a pain to mic up an amp and get the balance correct. I mean, you set the amp up the way you want it to sound, you hit record, and it all sounds absolutely painful. You move the mic around and, an hour later, it sounds god through the headphones, but guff in the mix. So you have to tweak the amp settings more, and repeat, and all that.

Here's your starter for ten on how to do get an awesome guitar sound:

1. Run some pink noise through your guitar amp/cab
2. Stick up your mic in front of a cab
3. Using some isolation headphones monitor the pink noise being captured through the mic
4. you'll now find it really easy/obvious to find the sweet spot by moving the mic around - it just sounds much bigger once you find it
4. if you want to double mic the cab now do the same again (with the other one still in place and capturing sound)
5. as you move the second mic around you'll hear it move into phase
6. providing both are panned to the centre you'll know the phase alignement is perfect when both signals appear in the same spot in front of you
7. press record
8. play the perfect take

Good luck!
Trev

[terminal3]

Originally Posted by TrevCircleStudios

Here's your starter for ten on how to do get an awesome guitar sound:

8. play the perfect take

Good luck!
Trev

Ahhh, that's where I keep screwing it all up...