The "Which Audio Interface To Go For?" for between £100-£200 thread

[EdRyan]

Originally Posted by ecc83

"I do have an Alesis Multimix12 sitting boxed up actually"
W.T,F!!!?
So why on earth would you NOT want to hook it up as a usb 2.0 interface?

And even if you have fallen for some 1/2ares'd misinformation about usb the thing will still perform the basic I/O functions you require without a usb connection I am willing to bet.

As for hooking stuff up: Rule one, get it out of the box.

Rule two, RTFM! THEN come back!

Dave.

Lets get something straight. Firewire is faster at physically carrying the audio. USB essentially 'bottlenecks' the data into packets and sends it in larger chunks. FW doesn't do this. However, because the data stream is constantly on, it will take more CPU and system overhead to maintain the link.

In terms of audio quality, USB & Firewire are equal. The trick is that USB devices have to have bigger system delay buffers to compensate for the bottlenecking. This doesn't affect perceptual latency though.. that is down to how well designed the card and driver is, as well as other issues such as sample rate.

Use your alesis for now, save up for something worth it !

[ecc83]

" However, because the data stream is constantly on, it will take more CPU and system overhead to maintain the link."

This is certainly true but much of the prejudice against usb was formed when people had access to pc's with perhaps a tenth of the power of todays machines. I admit that FW is ultimately capable of handling more in and outs than usb but usb HAS caught up in recent years. The MOTU 828MKll can handle 20 in 22outs and there are plenty of 8in8out usb 2.0 AI's about now.

FussyWire is a bit of a lottery re chipsets even the TI is not an absolutely safe bet with every pc I think I have read. Not a problem the noob needs.

My experience with usb 1.1. and 2.0 has been that it works, maybe a bit more involved than a pci card ( still the best bet IMHO) but gets there in the end.

Dave.

[Wilty]

Ended up settling on Audiophile 192 and (almost shamefully) one of these:

http://www.dv247.com/invt/34406/

Thought its probably one of the most flexible yet straightfoward options, and still comes in at half the price of a decent FW interface.

[EdRyan]

Originally Posted by ecc83

" However, because the data stream is constantly on, it will take more CPU and system overhead to maintain the link."

This is certainly true but much of the prejudice against usb was formed when people had access to pc's with perhaps a tenth of the power of todays machines. I admit that FW is ultimately capable of handling more in and outs than usb but usb HAS caught up in recent years. The MOTU 828MKll can handle 20 in 22outs and there are plenty of 8in8out usb 2.0 AI's about now.

FussyWire is a bit of a lottery re chipsets even the TI is not an absolutely safe bet with every pc I think I have read. Not a problem the noob needs.

My experience with usb 1.1. and 2.0 has been that it works, maybe a bit more involved than a pci card ( still the best bet IMHO) but gets there in the end.

Dave.

Yo Dave.

Wasn't knocking you, I was merely referring to the o.p who seemed o be under the impression that USB was significantly poorer for use as an audio data connection.

There are rumors that Firewire will be killed off when USB3 shows up to the party. Although these rumors are mostly being spread by people that noticed Apple removed FW ports from their macbook range. However, they left firewire on their desktop and pro models... It's just Apple trying to squeeze their breadline/entry level customers to upgrade imo.

+1 for PCI. Although I remember when I had a problem with a shared IRQ. I had to move the PCI card to another slot to solve the problem.

[ecc83]

Yo Ed!
No worries mate! All most confusing for the noob. Usb 3.0? I only knowwhat I have read, which pretty BA ref audio apps' but it looks as if it will be about the same relationship to FW800 as usb 2.00 is to FW 400.

What WOULD make 3.0 a winner IMHO is if the equipment mafctrs, software peeps and chipset/MOBO gurus got their underpants sorted and it was at least as (fairly) foolproof and universal (and it should be, says it on the tin!) as 1.1 and 2.0 have proved to be. "Hope springs....!"

OP: Don't be coy about the Berry! I think it could be great! The spec reads as tho' it was MADE for the 192! The MON800 has a max output* of +15dBu the 192 a max in of +14.2dBu! The dynamic ranges are also about comparable at 110dBish. And of course, all is balanced.

Certainly the op levels are some 10dB short of "pro" kit but a +26dBV headroom would simply be wasted in this situation.

The MON is wall rat powered so that isolates it from mains earth and that probably means no earth hum loops to bother about. Heck! I might just buy one for the heck of it.

*But of COURSE you will not be recording anything CLOSE to that level. You do know about running 24bits, 44.1kHz and at an average of -18dB don't you? Well, no matter, we will talk!

Dave.

[terminal3]

USB 3.0 will definitely happen, but FW1600 may also happen...

that is all for now.

[EdRyan]

Originally Posted by ecc83

Yo Ed!

*But of COURSE you will not be recording anything CLOSE to that level. You do know about running 24bits, 44.1kHz and at an average of -18dB don't you? Well, no matter, we will talk!

Dave.

Ohhhhh now you've done it Dave. How to confuse noobs and people that are not that technically minded.

And what sort of average are we talking. PPM, VU? Or Digital. The first two are nothing more then nostalgic fun to look at imo.

Anyhow, to help the noob...I feel a screen shot coming on courtesy of Logic's meter tool.



The meter shows the dynamic range of the signal as two values. It's absolute peak, which is equal to the loudest frequency component of the input signal at that given moment. The other measurement shown is the RMS (root mean squared) average of all of the frequencies contained within the signal at the same moment.

Before Dave assaults me, I will of course point out that the RMS isn't that accurate. For a digital meter to be very accurate, it needs to break the signal down further then a simple RMS. To do this, you need to use an FFT.

I will let Dave explain the reason why -18dB is a good idea. The floor is all yours

[ecc83]

Tomm'

bed now!
Dave.

[ecc83]

" will let Dave explain the reason why -18dB is a good idea. The floor is all yours"

Well thanks a LOT Ed!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Ok I'll give it a shot.

It will be a rare noob I think that has not had a crack at tape recording if only the humble Philips cassestte* They will quickly find out that you have two dogs barking at you. Overload at the top of the dynamic range and noise(hiss, mostly tape hiss). The partial answer in this case it to record as "hot" as possible, even to the extent that minor peaks can go into really quite high distortion.

Such a cavalier attitude is not allowed with digital systems, 0.1dB over 0dBFull Scale and the distortion is horrible, so we must never, ever go over the top.

Now fortunately a 24bit digital recording system has such a massive dynamic range ( approx 144dB) that it can be regarded as "noiseless" because there is no ananlogue gear that can get within a light year of that DR figure. Thus we can drop our average (aka rms) recording level down to minus 18dBFS allowing peaks to -10/12 with only the most rare (and very loud!) signals to hit neg 8 or so. This results in a rather "unhealthy" looking recorded "wave" but not to worry. If it is just a single track or maybe a stereo pair, the level can be pulled up in software, however...

If you have laid down 6, 8 or more tracks, all averaging neg 18 you will find when you come to mix them down in the DAW the levels will add and you will have so much more control of each one. Had you recorded each track at -6say, you would have to pull down each track so far that you would be very cramped at the end of the "fader".

One big drawback to all this is Cubase, at least my Essential4 version of it! It has no dB markings on the meters. Audacity which is free does! (if I am missing something E4 meterwise, shout!).

Suddenly got to go now. No doubt there will be questions!

Dave.

[ecc83]

Ok I'm back.

Meters: If we can take the MON800 LEDs to be accurate (and the ones on both my X802 and BCA2000 are remarkable so..) you would need the -6LED alight most of the time, 0 (dBu) occaisionaly and +4 very rarely(personally I would make up some attenuators and calibrate the works but that's tekkypedandic moir!).

If for some reason 24bit op' is not chosen, 16bits will still give excellent results you just need to up the level by say 10dB but this means an eagles' eye must kept to avoid overload. If you are recording fixed output devices, e.g. synths, you just need to set max out at say, -10dBFS safe in the knowledge that you cannot stray above it.

*Re cassette recorders. I have a top range Sony DolbyS machine (gift from a then, rich friend) and that, with TDKSA tape is bloody marvellous!

Dave.

[modz1]

Turning into a 'stickie' worthy thread methinks.. let's 'ave it!

[Wilty]

Definitely stickyworthy (new word-I made it), great advice. I had to read it a few times, but I'm not the clearest decibel in the range

Ordered the 192, and got a MON800 on the way-I hope anyone in the same position finds this post as useful as I have. Will post a review of both in the 'reviews' post (from a beginners POV) when everything arrives next week (next week baby, yeah!).

[ImpactProducer]

This Is my First Thread ----- , Does anybody Have any experience with one of the (lexicon) IONIX, models, or know any reason this would not be a good model to buy,Im mainly buying it for - Monitoring/Playback, .I use NUENDO, I make - (DnB, Dubstep, Breakbeat), Ive Got a PC,

Any other suggestions would be appreciated,
£200 - £300 , USB Audio Interface,
24 bit
USB 2


Can Lexicon Make Audio Interfaces, Propperly ?

I was Looking at a NOVATION, NIO, 24 -- (Its been recomended to me)
But it kind of looks a bit like a toy,

Am i being silly thinking of Cosmetics,

Any feedback would be grately -- Appreciated --

[ecc83]

Good morning I.P.

I have no knowledge of Lexicon AI's other than the very rare review(they are known to make excellent reverb units).

The Nio has had a good rep but is probably aimed more at the guitarist because of its onboard effects. These FX take the load off the pc (noobs rarely have Deep Thought!) and allow latency free FX and monitoring, most handy for the bedroom wannabe axeman.

I have for some time, based upon reviews and the fact that in 2 years I have never come across a bad forum report, suggested the Emu 0404usb 2.0. Cracking converters and very good mic pres', way above much else in its price range.

I am a big fan of M-Audio kit but I do know of isolated instances of people who have had trouble, similary Edirol have a very good rep' but there are suggestions of driver problems in certain cases.

But regarding those last points: There will ALWAYS be an AI/COMPUTER/OS/CHIPSET combination that F'sup! Probably 0.0001% but that is no consolation if you are the mugpunter! Do get a returns/refund agreement in writing.

DV's I am sure will be more than helpful in this regard.

Dave.

[EdRyan]

I'm a fan of the Nio. Had a play with one last week. For the size and price, it packs an awful lot of punch. Aside from guitarists, it'd also suit most dj's quite well. It also has 2 headphones outs, which is good when working with vocalists in the same room etc. You can both listen.